Tommy Cetnar:
We’re back to The Tommy Cetnar Show, August 15th. We’ll get into this special date in our last 10 minutes. Robin, we have a great man here. I’m going to have to read it as is. This former Detective Sergeant, who then went and put himself through law school. Mr. Robert Stahl was Assistant US Attorney from ’91 to ’97, handling many, many trials — major fraud, tax evasion, money laundering, 18 month FBI IRS undercover operation tagged Operation Red Daisy, where he prosecuted La Costa Nostra and the Russia mob, stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the federal and state taxes for motor fuels.
More importantly, he received the Department of Justice highest award. This award-winning Lawyer of the Year in 2022 is a friend and a special guest, who knows how to prosecute and also knows how to defend when people are wronged. Bob, how are you my friend? Thank you for joining Robin and I on The Tommy Cetnar Show today.
Robert Stahl:
I’m good, Tommy and Robin. Good to be with you.
Robin DiLauri:
Hi, Bob. Thank you so much. I have to tell my husband that he could just say the word, the mob, instead of La Costa Nostra.
Tommy Cetnar:
Well, I wanted to be Italian like you for a minute.
Robin DiLauri:
He didn’t even say it right.
Robert Stahl:
Exactly. He sounded very official though, Robin.
Robin DiLauri:
That’s true. Well, you’re a highly esteemed attorney, and so absolutely … you deserved that intro. So thank you for being on this show. Thank you so much.
Tommy Cetnar:
Hey, Bob, you have worn several hats. And I’ll ask you to put your defense hat on right now, because that’s more or less … it is what you’re practicing. This fourth indictment of the former President of the United States, let’s stipulate that most the Trump supporters think it’s dead wrong and all this. But this last one, does it make anybody a little more nervous in his camp when you see 16, 18 other people indicted?
And as we both know, it’s the squeeze time. Are they going to try to flip people? Is this a legitimate charge, when you see racketeering and conspiring charges like this, or is this just a pile on? And are we to believe the county leaked it out before they even told Trump that he was getting indicted, his lawyers? What say you, from a defense attorney here?
Robert Stahl:
Well, I think, Tommy, that the word from the Trump camp behind the scenes is this is the one that they’ve been concerned the most with. And why is that? One, like you just said, there’s 18 other defendants. And you and I both know that the more people that are indicted, the more people feel pressure to try to cooperate. And that is always a defense attorney’s concern, is that co-conspirators plead guilty. Say, “I was part of this conspiracy, and so were these other people.”
And so when you have a Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organization Act charge, which faces up to 20 years in prison, that brings together … why did they use RICO? Because that permits charging multiple people who commit separate crimes while working towards a common goal. And here they charge that all these acts were part of an ongoing criminal enterprise to overturn the 2020 election results. So I think that that has some weight to it because the state charges more seem to fit, as opposed to some of the federal charges that some people think are being stretched to fit the alleged facts.
Tommy Cetnar:
Now, does he get a whole new legal team for this indictment? How is this being broken up over all these indictments? Certain lawyers take number one, number two, number three, and now the fourth?
Robert Stahl:
It seems that way. I mean, former President Trump has a number of attorneys working for him. My colleague and friend John Lauro from Florida and New York is representing him in the latest federal indictment. And so it would be difficult for the same set of attorneys to handle all these cases, although you would think that there would be an overarching leadership team of attorneys to help defend, because the charges are similar in some of the jurisdictions.
So the DC recent federal case with the special counsel, although Jack Smith kept it lean and just charged former President Trump, many of these overt acts … and there’s 161 of them listed in the Georgia indictment will relate to the conduct that the federal government charges as well.
Tommy Cetnar:
And without bouncing around on you, special counsel was just … the AG issued the Delaware prosecutor all the power now, basically to explore Biden. Are they really … is the Department of Justice supposed to take somebody that close? Or should it be somebody independent, from the outside, if they’re really going to be seriously looking into Hunter Biden?
Robert Stahl:
Well, that’s a good question. This was … the US attorney from Delaware was a Trump appointee, and held over for this. And so it depends how you want to look at it. So the Department of Justice looks at it that he knows the case. If we appoint a new special counsel, that person has to get up to speed, and that’s going to be an even larger delay. And so this is a way of fast tracking it.
And friends on the other side look at it as that’s not appropriate, that it should be somebody independent, because this is the same person that authorized the two misdemeanor charges that were going to be pled to. So it depends how you look at it. And each side sees it differently.
Tommy Cetnar:
You’re very generous to us with your time today. And I know when you’re prepping for trial or getting ready with your clients, there’s no time for anybody to really breathe, because you want to give the best effort you can. You want to represent the right way. And if you were on the other side and you’re prosecuting, like we talked about, the cases that you’ve tried before, you don’t even go home half of the time. You’re with your colleagues and you’re getting ready for trial. How is President Trump going to run for office throughout all this?
Robert Stahl:
Well, that’s the big question, right? I mean, as you said, when myself and my other attorneys are getting ready for trial, we stay in hotels, we devote seven days a week to preparing and trying a case. And we rely on our clients to be with us and help prepare. And now facing four indictments, even if they get pushed out, as most of his attorneys are trying to do, it’s still going to be practically impossible not to divert someone’s attention. When clients are under these types of pressures, that becomes first and foremost in your mind. You have to worry about yourself and your family.
Former President Trump seems to do a good job of separating them and continuing moving forward, but the time constraints are huge. And as other of his attorneys have said, “These investigations have been going on for years, and now we want to fast track the trials.” So never does the defense get the same amount of time the government does in investigating cases. But certainly, the judges have to be concerned that there’s ineffective assistance of counsel and violating someone’s Sixth Amendment rights and other rights by rushing something to trial that’s gone on for years, and has dozens and dozens of potential witnesses and hundreds of thousands of documents. So counsel has to have time to prepare.
Tommy Cetnar:
So he could actually become the 47th President of the United States, and he would still be going on trial after he’s in the Oval Office?
Robert Stahl:
That’s possible. And I think that the trials would have to be delayed while he’s in office. So maybe looking at something five years from now.
Tommy Cetnar:
And Robin asked the question, could he pardon himself prior to going to trial?
Robert Stahl:
Well, that’s a question that’s up for debate. But in the state cases, no. So that’s the other reason that the Georgia case has greater jeopardy for the former president, is he can’t pardon himself or anyone for state charges. And even the governor, under Georgia law, has no pardon power. So even if a Republican governor wanted to pardon him, he or she would have no ability. So that’s one of these things.
And this case, Georgia, unlike federal courts, allows TVs most times in court. So that this may be publicized from the first appearance next week, through the whole trial. And that might be something that creates greater jeopardy for the trial, being publicized and being broadcast live.
Tommy Cetnar:
We got about a minute and a half to go. I got one last question for you. It was reported today that the judge in the New York case has made contributions to the Bidens. Does he have to recuse himself? He’s refusing to do it. Should he recuse himself as a result of that? Or she?
Robert Stahl:
Well, does the judge have to? No, because judges are still individuals and can make contributions. And the argument would be on the other side, as well, judges that make donations to the Republican Party, should they be foreclosed from hearing cases with Republican politicians. So I think that … and always, disqualifying a judge is a very uphill battle. So I don’t think it carries much weight in the judicial forum. And I don’t think you’ll have an appellate court overturn the judge’s decision.
So it’s always tough. And obviously when you do that, in normal cases, defense attorneys have to worry about, now what does the judge think about the defense? This is a unique set of circumstances.
Tommy Cetnar:
Well, it’s historic and it’s –
Robert Stahl:
As far as someone now publicly challenging the judges.
Tommy Cetnar:
Yeah. It’s historic, what’s going on here. It’s kind of frustrating. But I guess as we have learned, you’re innocent until proven guilty, but they’re really coming after him. Bob, thank you for coming on. It means a lot to us and our listeners. I mean, your expertise is one that we value in a tremendous way. And I know your schedule, so I really, really appreciate the time today, and hope you’ll keep in touch with us throughout the four indictments that are before us. And we’ll see what happens in 2024.
Robert Stahl:
Well, I look forward to talking with you both, and your audience, again. These are complicated matters and it’s hard to just get them down in a short period of time. So let’s see how everything plays out.
Tommy Cetnar:
Thanks, pal. I appreciate your coming on.
Robin DiLauri:
Thank you so much.
Tommy Cetnar:
Bob Stahl, everybody. One of the best in the business. One of the best in the business. Thanks, Bob.
